cca. 117, Hadrian distruge podul peste dunare a lui Apolodor deoarece Oltenia si Banatul erau strabatute de triburile barbare, de aceea multe colonii din timpul lui Traian se muta spre sud catre Dunare.
In 170 Costobocii intra in Dacia ca la ei acasa, dupa care in 171 se ofera la 12.ooo de barbari pamant in Dacia pentru a-i impaciui sa nu porneasca cu razboi asupra oraselor din Dacia.
În 172 e.n., după ce au fost învinși in raidurile lor din 170-171 de trupele romane, costobocii nu mai constituiau o forță importantă. La acel moment, Cornelius Clemens, guvernatorul Daciei (recunoscut pentru calitățile sale de a exploata rivalitățile dintre triburile vecine Daciei), a reușit să dirijeze migrația triburilor Vandale ale asdingilor și lacringilor către teritoriul costobocilor. Apoi, i-a convins pe costoboci să atace invadatorii vandali promițându-le ajutorul romanilor și subsidii romane.
. Asdingii au fost la inceput victorioși. Atunci, Clemens i-a convins pe lacringi să-i atace și totodată i-a incurajat și pe inițial învinșii costoboci să se ridice la luptă și să încheie o alianță cu lacringii. Când costobocii au invins în acest plănuit “război civil”, Marcus i-a încurajat să devină loiali aliaților romani prin daruri generoase de pamant și bani. Ei s-au dovedit aliați loiali in al doilea razboi al romanilor împotriva marcomanilor.
Ca rezultat, potrivit lui Dio Cassius, în 180 e.n., un număr de 18,000 daci independenți au fost primiți in Dacia Romană, probabil întemeind orașele Piroboridava și Tamasidava, ale căror nume arată o origine dacică mai târzie
http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Costoboci
Adica in plina glorie romanii mituiau pe daci si chiar le dadeau pamant si subsidii in Dacia Romana pe la anul 180 ?!... si i-au lasat sa-si faca doua orase dacice-costoboce in plin teritoriu roman !!! ???
In armeana "GET" = r^u, iar in lb. iranice unii l-au dat ca "peshte" probabil din R^U similar cu R^bA (slv.) =peshte ... din r^u.
Asadar GETII par a fi o populatie de stepa traitoare pe langa vaduri /ape, similara bolohovenilor, moldovenilor (s-CIT =s-GET).
DACII in schimb par a fii o populatie mult mai tarzie rezultata din replierea getilor spre munti datorita populatilor iraniene, DAG=munte.
Putem spune ca getii dintr-o populatie predominant de stepa a devenit o populatie predominant montana (v. Carpatii si aria Balcanica), ei ajungand sa reziste intre munti (Carpati-Bugeac-Nipru-Crimeea-Caucaz, in timp ce in spatile vaste ale Rusiei vor fi fost inlocuiti complet de catre iranieni si turci, ramanand doar relicve lingvistice ...
GET=r^u in armeana nu are o semnificatie pe acelasi curs ci provinde din "a CUNOASTE, a VEDEA, a STII", asadar s-CETI=sciti= cunoscatori ~ GETI = a ghicii, a citii ------------comp. Rig-Veda = a vedea-veda, a cunoaste.
Dalmatian miners were brought in to operate the gold mines in the Bihor Mountains, adding to the imperial coffers.
At Alburnus Maior the gold mines flourished between 131 and 167 AD, but over time they began to see diminishing returns as the local gold reserves were exploited.Evidence points to the closure of the gold mines around the year 215 AD.
Dupa cum vezi minele de la Rosia Montana au avut perioada de apogeu in perioada (131...167) AD.
In anul 215 AD acele mine au fost abandonate iar minerii adusi din Dalmatia in mod sigur au plecat.
c. 115 – Armenia, Assyria and Mesopotamia, formed by Trajan, abandoned by Hadrian in 118
c. 197 – Mesopotamia, imperial praefectorial province
Trajan's province
In 113, Emperor Trajan (r. 98–117) launched a war against Rome's long-time eastern rival, the Parthian Empire. In 114, he conquered Armenia, which was made into a province, and by the end of 115, he had conquered northern Mesopotamia. This too was organized as a province in early 116, when coins were minted to celebrate the fact.[1]
Later in the same year, Trajan marched into central and southern Mesopotamia (enlarging and completing the province of Mesopotamia) and across the river Tigris to Adiabene, which he annexed into another Roman province, Assyria.[2] But he did not stop there. In the last months of 116, he captured the great Persian city of Susa. He deposed the Parthian king Osroes I and put his own puppet ruler Parthamaspates on the Parthian throne. Never again would the Roman Empire advance so far to the east.
As soon as Trajan died however, his successor Hadrian (r. 117–138) relinquished his conquests east of the Euphrates river, which became again the Roman Empire's eastern boundary.[3][4]
[edit]Severus' province
Northern Mesopotamia, including Osroene, came again under Roman control in the expedition of Lucius Verus in 161–166, but were not formally organized into provinces; instead, they were left under local vassal rulers, although Roman garrisons were maintained, notably at Nisibis. This control was threatened in 195, during the civil war between Septimius Severus (r. 193–211) and the usurper Pescennius Niger, when rebellions broke out in the area, and Nisibis was besieged. Severus quickly restored order and organized Osroene as a full province.[5][6] Next Severus embarked on a war against Parthia, which he concluded successfully with the sack of the Parthian capital Ctesiphon. In emulation of Trajan, he re-established a province of Mesopotamia in 198, with Nisibis, elevated to the status of a full colonia, as its capital.[7][8]
Unlike Trajan's province, which encompassed the whole of Roman-occupied Mesopotamia between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, the new province was limited between the province of Osroene to the south, the Euphrates and Tigris to the north, and the river Chaboras (modern Khabur) to the east.[9] For the remainder of its existence, the new province would remain a bone of contention between the Romans and the Iranian powers, suffering heavily in the recurrent Roman–Persian Wars. In the turmoil that followed the Year of the Six Emperors, in 239–243, Ardashir I (r. 224–241), the founder of the new Sassanid Empire which replaced the moribund Parthians, attacked and overran the area, but it was recovered by Timesitheus before his death in 243.[10] In the 250s, the Persian shah Shapur I (r. ca. 240–270) attacked Mesopotamia, and fought with the Roman emperor Valerian (r. 253–260), whom he captured at Edessa in 260.[11] In the next year however, Shapur was heavily defeated by Odaenathus of Palmyra and driven out of Mesopotamia.[12]
The late Roman Diocese of the East, including the province of Mesopotamia
Under the reforms of Diocletian (r. 284–305) and Constantine I (r. 306–337), it became part of the Diocese of the East, which in turn was subordinated to the praetorian prefecture of the East. Nisibis and Singara, along with the territory in Adiabene conquered by Diocletian were lost after the debacle of Julian's Persian expedition in 363, and the capital was transferred to Amida, while the seat of the military commander, the dux Mesopotamiae, was located at Constantina. Other cities included Martyropolis and Kephas.[9]
After the troubles Roman forces faced in the Anastasian War of 502–506, the East Roman emperor Anastasius I (r. 591–518) built the fortress of Dara as a counter to Nisibis and as the new base of the dux Mesopotamiae. During the reforms of Justinian I (r. 527–565), the province was split up: the northern districts with Martyropolis went to the new province of Armenia IV, while the remainder was divided into two civil and ecclesiastical districts, one (the region south of the Tigris) with capital at Amida and the other (the region of Tur Abdin) with capital at Dara.[9] The province suffered greatly during the near-constant wars with Persia in the 6th century. In 573, the Persians even took Dara, although the East Romans recovered it under the peace of 591. They lost it again to the Persians in the great war of 602–628, and regained it afterwards only to lose the entire region permanently to the Muslim conquests in 633–640.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia_(Roman_province)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osroene
By this time, Hadrian had grown so frustrated with the continual problems in the territories north of the Danube that he contemplated withdrawing from Dacia.[2] As an emergency measure, Hadrian dismantled Apollodorus’s bridge across the Danube, concerned about the threat posed by barbarian incursions across the Olt River and a southward push between a number of Trajan’s colonia and the castrum at Bersobis.[51]
Roman Dacia
By 118, Hadrian himself had taken to the field against the Roxolani and the Iazyges, and although he defeated them, he agreed to reinstate the subsidies to the Roxolani.[52][53] Hadrian then decided to abandon certain portions of Trajan's Dacian conquests. The territories added to Moesia Inferior (Southern Moldavia, the south-eastern edge of the Carpathian Mountains, and the plains of Muntenia and Oltenia) were returned to the Roxolani.[54][53] As a result, Moesia Inferior reverted once again to the original boundaries it possessed prior to the acquisition of Dacia.[33] The portions of Moesia Inferior to the north of the Danube were split off and refashioned into a new province called Dacia Inferior.[33] Trajan’s original province of Dacia was relabelled Dacia Superior.[33] It was at this time that Hadrian moved the Legio IV Flavia Felix from its base at Ulpia Traiana Sarmizegetusa, and ordered it stationed in Moesia Superior.[55]
Apparently, war reached northern Dacia after 167 when the Iazyges, having been thrust out of Pannonia, focused their energies on Dacia and took the gold mines at Alburnus Maior (modern Roşia Montană, Romania).
The last date found on the wax tablets discovered in the mineshafts there (which had been hidden when an enemy attack seemed imminent) is 29 May 167.
The suburban villas at Ulpia Traiana Sarmizegetusa were burned, and the camp at Slăveni was destroyed by the Marcomanni.
By the time Marcus Aurelius reached Aquileia in 168 AD, the Iazyges had taken over 100,000 Roman captives.
That same year (170) the Costoboci (whose lands were to the north or northeast of Dacia)[78] swept through Dacia on their way south.[79] Weakened as it was, the empire could not prevent the movement of tribespeople into an exposed Dacia during 171,[80] and Marcus Aurelius was forced to enter into diplomatic negotiations in an attempt to break up some of the barbarian alliances.
In 171, the Astingi invaded Dacia,[81] defeating the Costoboci and tearing down numerous Roman castra, including the fort at Tibiscum (modern Jupa in Romania), before turning their attention to the capital, Ulpia Traiana Sarmizegetusa.
The Romans negotiated a settlement with the Astingi, whereby they agreed to leave Dacia and settle in the lands of the Costoboci.[81] In the meantime, plots of land were distributed to some 12,000 dispossessed and wandering tribespeople, in an attempt to prevent them from becoming a threat to the province if they continued to roam at the edges of Dacia.[83]
Throughout this period, the tribes bordering Dacia to the east, such as the Roxolani, did not participate in the mass invasions of the empire.[77] Traditionally seen as a vindication of Trajan's decision to create the province of Dacia,[77] some modern authors have viewed their actions as an example of support for the continued status quo of Roman–client relationships in the face of pressure from the Germanic tribes to their north.[82] By 173 AD, the Marcomanni had been defeated;[84] however, the war with the Iazyges and Quadi continued, and to ensure the quick deployment of the legions to the north-western portions of Dacia which were under pressure, the Romans built a road between Porolissum and Napoca.[85] Here, the Romans encountered heavy resistance from the Iazyges,[85] and throughout the winter of 172-173, Roman strongholds along the Tisa and Danube rivers were attacked by the Iazyges and the Quadi.[85]
Consequently, Marcus Aurelius turned his full attention against the Iazyges and Quadi. He crushed the Quadi in 174 AD, defeating them in battle on the frozen Danube river, after which they sued for peace.[86] The emperor then turned his attention to the Iazyges; after defeating them and throwing them out of Dacia, the Senate awarded him the title of Samarticus Maximus in 175 AD.[77] Conscious of the need to create a permanent solution to the problems on the empire's northern frontiers,[77] Marcus Aurelius relaxed some of his restrictions on the Marcomanni and the Iazyges.
In particular, he allowed the Iazyges to travel through imperial Dacia to trade with the Roxolani, so long as they had the governor's approval.
At the same time he was determined to implement a plan to annex the territories of the Marcomanni and the Iazyges as the empire's newest provinces, only to be derailed by the revolt of Avidius Cassius.
Revival under the Severans (193–235)
Severus extended the province’s eastern frontier some 14 kilometres east of the Olt River, and completed the Limes Transalutanus. The work included the construction of 14 fortified camps spread over a distance of approximately 225 kilometres, stretching from Flămânda (situated near the Danube River) in the south to Cumidava (modern day Breţcu in Romania).
Some modern authors[who?] write that Caracalla added further territory to Dacia by pushing the border around 50 kilometres east of the Olt river.[108][dubious – discuss]
In 218, Caracalla’s successor, Macrinus, returned a number of non-Romanized Dacian hostages whom Caracalla had taken, possibly as a result of some unrest caused by the tribes after Caracalla’s assassination.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dacia
Iti dai seama ce tari erau ca le-au luat iazigii minele de aur si toate astea sunt trecute sub tacere in istoria noastra oficiala, la fel si raderea din temelii a mai multor orase colonii cu cca. un secol inainte de retragerea aureliana.
M-am plictisit deja sa tot postez aceleasi evidente si altii sa se faca ca nu le vad.
Chiar pe Wikipedia se spune clar ca Dacia in partea transilvana cuprindea vestul sau nord-vestul acestei depresiuni, pe cand hartile noastre o arata hat pana in Moldova, cel putin pe crestele Carpatilor.
In Oltenia frontiera era undeva prin Banatul montan, pe Carpati, cel mult in subcarpatii getici dupa 117 probabil, apoi se avanseaza stadial pana la Jiu, apoi pana la Olt, ... dincolo de Olt, apoi cade din nou pe Olt, la vest de Olt, ..., asadar nu a existat o permanenta a unor frontalii fixe, ba mai mult, barbarii faceau legea chiar si in peticul de Dacie ce a ramas constant sub romani, iar romanii ii pristuiau atata vreme cat nu le provocau neplaceri maxime, deci romanizarea este un simplu basm de adormit copiii.
5-6 orasele pe langa Apuseni de la Zalau la Deva; unul singur in Oltenia si ZERO in Banat.
Porolisum - 5.ooo;
In felul acesta un razboi cu sarmatii iazigi la granita de vest a Daciei, prin anii 107-108, a trecut, probabil, abia remarcat. Dar aceiasi iazigi din campia dintre Tisa si Dunare, ca si neamurile lor din est - roxolanii - se vor revolta din nou, imediat dupa moartea lui Traian (11 august 117). Moesia Inferior si mai ales Dacia sunt puse in mare pericol. in aceste conditii vitrege isi incepe domnia Hadrian (117-138). Venind imediat la Dunare, el ii imbuna pe roxolani cu subsidii. Unui general inzestrat - Q. Marcius Turbo - desi doar cavaler, i se acorda o comanda exceptionala, in fruntea Daciei si Pannoniei Inferior. Iazigii sunt prinsi astfel intr-un cleste si infranti (HA, vita Hadriani, 6, 6-8; Dio Cassius LXVIII, 13, 6).
Totusi, contextul de nesiguranta de la inceputul domniei il determina pe imparat (care avusese intentia, in primul moment, sa renunti la provincia Dacia toata) sa abandoneze sudul Moldovei, Muntenia si - probabil -- vestul Banatului. Fara asezari importante si fara sa fi fost colonizate sub Traian, aceste regiuni vor fi in continuare controlate de romani; capetele de pod de pe malul stang al Dunarii, de la Barbosi, langa Galati, si de la Orlovka, vor fi mentinute pe mai departe, ca puncte strategice de interes.
Zonele abandonate din provinciile Moesia Inferior si Dacia reprezentau foarte putin in comparatie cu imensele teritorii cucerite de Traian in Orient si la care acelasi Hadrian renunta acum, readucand granita imperiului pe Eufrat.
http://www.scrigroup.com/istorie-politica/...Moesia51339.php
Dacia Inferior apare ca o provincie tampon intre Dacia Superior si barbaricum.
Fata de contactul pe care Dacia romana il avea - pe linia Dunarii - cu Imperiul, granitele sale de vest, nord si rasarit (care o pazeau de iazigi, de daco-getii liberi, de costoboci, carpi, roxolani etc.) erau de o lungime considerabila. Granita de vest a Daciei, prin Banat, urma un traseu inca neclarificat: pe Tisa sau, mai curand pe linia castrelor de la Lederata, pe Dunare (azi Banatska Palanka, in Iugoslavia), pana la Berzobis. Probabil ca dupa Traian granita din Banat a fost retrasa mai spre rasarit, pe culoarul Timis-Cerna, cu puncte importante pe granita Dierna (azi Orsova, jud. Mehedinti), Mehadia, marele castru auxiliar de la Tibiscum (azi Jupa, langa Caransebes). Pe valea Muresului granita era strajuita de alt castru de mare valoare strategica, la Micia (azi Vetel, langa Deva). De aici, granita vestica urca spre nord, urmand un traseu deocamdata destul de neclar; oricum, era inglobata zona aurifera din Carpatii Occidentali. Din valea Crisului Repede, cu castrul de la Bologa (jud. Cluj), granita prinde iarasi un contur mai limpede ajungand, printr-un sir de castre, pana la Porolis-sum (azi Moigrad, langa Zalau), cel mai important punct strategic din nordul Daciei. Apoi granita urmarea in general linia Somesului, cu castrul de la Samum (azi Caseiu, jud. Cluj). De la Ilisua (jud. Bistrita-Nasaud) mai multe castre marcheaza frontiera estica, pe la poalele Carpatilor Orientali, pana in fata pasului Oituz unde castrul de la Angustia (azi Bretcu, jud. Covasna) marca punctul cel mai rasaritean al Daciei romane.
Limesul transalutan avea 14 puncte fortificate cu castre, pana dupa pasul Bran, la Cumidava (azi Rasnov, jud. Brasov), de unde se facea legatura cu Angustia. Aceasta opera defensiva, care a functionat pana in timpul lui Filip Arabul, isi are inceputurile, probabil, sub Hadrian sau sub Antoninus Pius, fara sa insemne, practic, o extindere a provinciei la rasarit de Olt, caci asezari civile n-au existat in acest teritoriu.
Doar primii ani din domnia lui Marcus Aurelius (161-180) au corespuns dorintelor imparatului-filosof, mare reprezentant al neostoicismului: ani de pace si prosperitate, in care problemele militare le-a lasat in seama asociatului sau la tron, Lucius Verus (161-169). Cu anul 166 se deschide una din cele mai grele perioade pentru Imperiu caci „au conspirat toate neamurile, de la granita Illyricului pana in Gallia' (HA, vita Marci, 22, 1), incepand astfel razboaiele marcomanice, la care au luat parte si cvazii, lacringii, burii, roxolanii, costobocii si altii. Toate provinciile dunarene au suferit, ca si nordul Italiei si Grecia. Pax romana instaurata de Augustus se dovedise a nu fi vesnica, iar relativul echilibru al lumii romane a fost adanc zdruncinat.
Prin pozitia lor, Dacia si Dobrogea nu au fost crutate, raidurile iazigilor, lacringilor si burilor in cazul Daciei, ale costobocilor si bastarnilor in cazul Dobrogei, afectandu-le timp de mai multi ani, incepand cu a doua jumatate a anului 167. Teritorii intinse sunt devastate, atat in Dacia Porolissensis, cat si in regiunile centrale si sud-transilvanene. „Cheia de bolta' a apararii nordice a provinciei - Porolissum - nu reuseste sa opreasca invazia. Cele doua castre de aici sufera distrugeri; dupa trecerea acestui obstacol, neamurile* barbare se indreapta spre zona aurifera (unde au patruns, poate, si pe valea Muresului, dinspre Tisa). Populatia de la Alburnus Maior (azi Rosia Montana, jud. Alba), cuprinsa de panica, isi ascunde actele - tablitele cerate - in galeriile minelor de aur (data ultimei tablite este 29 mai 167 - IDR, I, TabCerD XIII). Distrugeri cauzate de invazie se remarca la Apulum si, mai ales, la Ulpia Traiana Sarmizegetusa, cel putin in zona extramurana ( la villa suburbana de langa amfiteatru, la templul lui Liber Pater, incendiat acum - potrivit inscriptiei de refacere - de catre dusmani - hostes). in sfarsit, mai multe tezaure monetare sunt ingropate in diferite locuri din provincie, dovedind starea de nesiguranta.
Atacurile reusite asupra Daciei au demonstrat neajunsurile militare si organizatorice ale provinciei: o singura legiune cantonata in Dacia s-a dovedit insuficienta, chiar daca existau numeroase trupe auxiliare; de asemenea, partajarea comenzii militare in cele trei provincii dacice nu se mai prezenta ca o solutie acceptabila. Prin urmare, in anul 168, legiunea a V-a Macedonica e transferata in Dacia, la Potaissa (azi Turda, jud. Cluj), in cadrul seriei de masuri care urmarea intarirea frontierelor provinciilor dunarene periclitate, inclusiv prin crearea de noi legiuni (II Italica si III Italica) stabilite pe Dunare.
In Dacia, urmasul lui Fronto, guvernatorul Sex. Cornelius Clemens trebuie sa faca fata noilor atacuri ale semintiilor germanice si dacice, mai ales la frontiere. Se poarta tratative, se platesc subsidii, sunt aszate in provincie grupuri de populatii din barbaricum. Dupa 172 luptele impotriva marcomanilor, cvazilor si iazigilor continua. intreg deceniul opt cunoaste neincetate framantari, caci dupa infrangerea unor grupuri de barbari si incheierea pacii, luptele reincepeau. Astfel, iazigii sunt infranti iar in 175 se incheie o pace, ca peste doi ani luptele la Dunare sa reinceapa. In 179 se incheie un tratat-conventie cu iazigii, care primesc dreptul de a face comert cu roxolanii traversand provincia Dacia, cu acordul guvernatorului (Dio Cassius, LXXI, 19, 2). Drumul lor trecea prin Porolissum, localitatile din estul provinciei, ajungea la Angustia, trecand prin pasul Oituz in teritoriile roxolanilor, iar de acolo ducea pana la Tyras. Dupa moartea lui Marcus Aurelius (17 martie 180), fiul si urmasul sau Commodus (180-192) a incheiat pacea cu marcomanii si cvazii. La inceputul domniei acestui imparat se mai duc lupte la nord de Dacia cu burii, de catre guvernatorul provinciei, C. Vettius Sabinianus Iulius Hospes. Pacea incheiata prevedea, printre altele, asigurarea unei fasii de 40 de stadii (peste 7 km) la granitele nordice ale Daciei, in care populatiile din barbaricum nu aveau acces.
Totodata Sabinianus „a adus sub ascultare 12 000 de daci marginasi' carora le-a promis pamant - acelora care ar fi dorit sa se stabileasca in provincie (Dio Cassius, LXXII, 3, l-3). Nu stim insa daca proiectata colonizare s-a petrecut efectiv.
Deceniul noua n-a fost lipsit nici el de framantari. Lupte impotriva dacilor liberi de la nordul Daciei au mai avut loc prin 183-184.
In anul 238 au loc atacuri combinate, ale carpilor si gotilor, in Moesia Inferior. Carpii revin cu noi invazii in Moesia si Tracia in anul 242. Este posibil ca acum, sub Gordian al III-lea (238-244), actiunea carpilor sa fi afectat si zonele rasaritene si meridionale ale Daciei.
Dar marele atac al carpilor se va produce sub Filip Arabul (244-249), cand provinciile sufera distrugeri ca pe vremea razboaielor marcomanice. Zosimos (sec. V) relateaza (I, 20) ca imparatul insusi a venit la Dunare, unde carpii invadasera teritoriul roman. in urma luptelor carpii se retrag intr-o fortificatie, care e supusa asediului. Batalia decisiva s-a dat in anul 247. Numeroase tezaure monetare ingropate acum atesta patrunderea violenta a carpilor, insotita de jafuri si inrobiri. Un personaj din Apulum mentioneaza ulterior pe un altar ca a scapat din captivitatea carpilor - a Carpis liberatus (CIL, III, 1054). Situatia grava a determinat masuri suplimentare de securitate si in castrul de legiune de la Potaissa, unde e blocata partial o poarta (va fi redeschisa la trecerea pericolului). Limesul transalutan este abandonat, apararea repliindu-se pe linia Oltului.
Toate centrele urbane din Dobrogea sufera mari pradaciuni la mijlocul secolului al III-lea. Histria a fost complet distrusa de goti (HA, vita Maximi et Balbini, XVI, 3), viata revenind aici abia la sfarsitul secolului. Pretutindeni, la Tropaeum Traiani, Noviodunum, Dinogetia, Capidava, Sacidava etc. se constata mari distrugeri cauzate de invadatori.
Gaslight a scris:Dar de unde provin limbile romanice?
Acestea derivă dintr-o limba proto-romanică, de fapt proto-celticădar cu influente multiple, după cum engleza desi este o limba germanică are influente multiple si profunde dinspre alte grupe lingvistice.
Ideea este ca limbile IE provin din proto-IE si s-au separat pe grupe distincte, probabil grupul proto-celtic din care facea parte latina, limbi italice, limbile romanice, samd, a fost primul format in Europa, asa se explică amplasamentul marginal spre sud si vest, pe cand grupul slavo-germanic este mai recent in centrul si estul Europei, dar oricum toata problema priveste preistoria de la cca. 4.ooo BC pana spre 1.ooo BC.